Real Winning Estimates posted at A Photo Editor

 
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joshwa
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:35 am    Post subject: Real Winning Estimates posted at A Photo Editor Reply with quote

just in case you all hadn't seen these:

http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/08/27/what-to-charge-advertising-photography/

http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/09/10/advertising-shoot-estimates-national/

http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/09/11/advertising-estimates-regional/

http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/09/08/suzanne-sease-estimating-an-advertising-shoot/

The debate in the comments is just as valuable as the estimates themselves!
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Gordon Moat
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely recommended reading there, especially the Suzanne Sease interview:

http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/09/08/suzanne-sease-estimating-an-advertising-shoot/

Even if you know some of these practices, it is a good refresher.

Unfortunately we are still left without clear ranges for creative fees. It defies belief that the Graphic Artists Guild can create their Handbook of Pricing and Ethical Guidelines for Illustrators and Graphic Designers, yet Photographers remain fragmented and without clearer business practices.
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James Cook
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Unfortunately we are still left without clear ranges for creative fees. It defies belief that the Graphic Artists Guild can create their Handbook of Pricing and Ethical Guidelines for Illustrators and Graphic Designers, yet Photographers remain fragmented and without clearer business practices.


Photography organizations can't provide us with suggested fees. Not because they're photography oriented, but because they're non-profit groups. If we want to form a union, that would be different. ASMP was once investigated for its suggested stock photo rates, which is why they no longer publish them - and clients used the rates to determine a ceiling rather than a floor for what should be paid.

To a large degree your fees are determined by your costs of doing business. The touted formula (simplified) is to determine how much you should be paid per year. Add your overhead and a profit margin for your business so it can grow. Divide that by how many days you want to work per year and you know what you need to charge on each of those days.

Here's a little calculator I built for the purpose:


Licensing fees are typically added to the shooting fee and there are several guides available to help you determine fair and proper fees. The value of usage is not affected by your costs.

We still have many excellent guides to business practices; probably better than most other industries. Most of the photo organizations offer them, but I believe ASMP has the most comprehensive. Some are for members only, but there's a lot available to anyone wanting to make use of them on their site.
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Gordon Moat
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GAG published their Handbook prior to offering a Union. Also, there were few who joined that Union, though the Handbook is still widely available. Fee ranges are the result of surveys of the industry, and often based upon the size of a project, the size of the company needing that project, or the complexity.

Plumbers and auto mechanics charge nearly the same rates in every major city in North America. Attorneys charge largely the same rates in major areas for their specialities. There is no requirement for any of these professionals to be unionized to charge the same rates, or closely similar rates.

You must grow profits in order to grow a business, and that is beyond CODB. Your CODB should be a guide, not a limitation. I know my CODB, but I don't want to calculate it based upon a dayrate style of doing work. I think the old dayrate idea is outmoded, but maybe that is due to me being fairly new in this profession (under five years). Your suggestion is a good one, but I want more than that.

Sorry to hear that ASMP got investigated. I think perhaps that is a guide, in that some of us could push for more openness in how we arrive at our fees, but only to the point that someone wants to arrest us or investigate us. Maybe that is more for another group of individuals, instead of expecting ASMP, APA, or EP to come up with something. Those organizations have been good at ethics and technical education, but I will slam them all for being woefully short on revealing more about creative fees. This is a challenge to them, but maybe they don't have the balls to do more.

So here we go, I do mostly corporate direct, and I base my creative fee upon 5% of the media buy and/or produced item budget of my clients, plus any expenses. In some instances I might be low with that method. In other instances, it might seem too high for some lower budget potential clients. When it comes to more agency direct work, then my fee basis becomes more difficult to calculate, and I don't just want to go off FotoQuote. I am simplifying this post, and my 5% calculation is more involved that what I am willing to type here (too many words to really go into details), but I am at least willing to give insight into how I figure out my fees to clients.

As photographic professionals, I feel we have zero right to bitch about low balling faux-tographers if we are unwilling to give more insight into how we calculate our creative fees. I think we should also be clearer and more open to our potential clients about those creative fees, so that they don't need to wonder how we arrived at those numbers.

I apologize in advance if my posting sounds like a rant, or if I have offended anyone. I want us to become a stronger profession, and I think our work will become more appreciated as a result.
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Leslie
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gordon: The groups really are in a bad place to talk about fees, legally that is. It sucks, but they cannot breach their duty to their members by doing something they know will have a high risk of severe legal consequences.

But I agree with you that we need to get that information out more. I heartily agree with your system and have been advocating a similar one for some time. More people who are successful, especially (to serve as positive models), need to get their pricing info out to the community.
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Jon DeVaul
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a really new member of ASMP. I think one of the great things for ASMP members is the "Paperwork Share". While ASMP can't suggest what to charge, the Paperwork Share enables photographers to share past invoices with members, so we can get an idea about what others charged for a job that might be similar to something the comes up for us.
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