Another Bank Job - what would you quote

 
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bubs
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:26 pm    Post subject: Another Bank Job - what would you quote Reply with quote

I've been asked to quote on another Northern Irish bank project.
5 people in total; a few singles and one couple, on white, cropped 1/2 to 3/4 length.
Usage is billboards, bank brochures, bank signage etc, seems like they want it for everything. The agency also asked if I could supply a CD of all the images from the shoot so they had some options on variations.
I told her they would only get what they need as I like to control the quality of my images so I keep all the retouching and processing in house.

So back in North America I know this is a four to five digit quote, no problem. Depending on the finite details of usage it could go way higher.

Just curious as to what others here would likely charge, totally out of curiosity.

I know exactly what they are expecting to get this job done for but I'll save that till a few others post their ideas.

thanks
r
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davegilo
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you looking for usage estimate or production costs? not enough info on either.
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bubs
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm looking to see what others would respond with what was given.
Production is easy; white seamless, blow out the background images. No Biggie.
Its the usage and the actual creative fee I'm interested in.
Usage is for the UK and ROI, billboards (24,48 & 96), bank brochures ( probably several hundred thousand if not a million), bank 'in store' signage (couple of hundred maybe of 4 or 5 images).
The client contacted me late on friday night for a shoot on tuesday, so first works could be printed and hung for friday.
Basically they want all the images and rights to do what they please with them.
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Gordon Moat
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would look at their media buy and print production costs, and then factor a creative fee based upon 5% of that. Then I would add on any direct production expenses I incur and any other expenses. If they don't have an idea of their media purchase budget, or are unwilling to give you that, then I would find out the expenses they might find, and build a figure from that.

It's easily in the five figure realm, or more. Even at that, the percentage of their budget that would go to photography would be a very small portion of their overall ad budget.
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bubs
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I know what its worth back in North America but over here is a different story.
How does 1000 all in sound? Thats what it ended up being in the end. A "3 month" usage for all media, unlimited for Ireland. You just can't compete against these press guys who are happy to do something for 500 bucks (and no creativity).
Anyone else out there in remote areas (outside of NA) quoting what they feel are low fees for advertising?

r
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Leslie
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This project is worth many times more than 1000. The image is clearly an important element and is thus of VERY high value. In the US, this would be more like closer to a high 5-figure price for a significant regional (not national) bank. Seriously.

And you are right, you can't compete on price. You never should. There will ALWAYS be someone cheaper. ALWAYS. SO don't go there. Emphasize the creativity and value you bring to a project, make sure the images you make back that up, give YOUR price, and shut up.

As Blake Discher likes to say: next person to speak (after you give your price) loses.

Over there, btw, it is NOT a different story. I know plenty of European shooters who will not price as low as you did and who do just fine. It's scary to do, sure, to say "it costs this much" full stop. But even if you are making great work that you believe in, no one else will value it if YOU DON'T!

Next time, stand up taller for the value of your work. Smile You can do it.
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bubs
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Leslie
it is in fact all jobs are priced this way. 500-600 for your creative fee (thats what I call it but they still call it a day rate) and only 25 flat for usage (unlimited). I have spoken with some photographers here who actually let the client do whatever they want with the images afterwards (including selling it to third parties). PR jobs (which I never shoot) are jobbed out by the hour and most photographers hand the clients a cd with everything from the shoot on it because "they paid for it, its theirs now".
This is the question that I have been asking agencies all over the country, "how do we raise our rates to reflect our work compared to the rest of the UK?".
I have done bank work back in NA and I have friends who still collect usage from pharmaceutical companies to pay their yearly mortgage (from single images). How do I educate a dozen or so photographers to raise their rates in line with the rest of the 1st world?
That said, I have no idea why more London and mainland agencies don't come over here to dip in the talent pool; the rates for everything are so low and the talent is very good.
If Peter Valk is listening, I'm wondering if he has the same issues in Russia with advertising clients?
And Leslie, do you have any ideas on how to bring an entire country out of the 70's and into this millennium?

thanks
r
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Gordon Moat
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a different situation is that by the time you educate a low end (low ball) photographer, they are probably one step away from getting out of the business. Of course there is someone else just waiting to step into the supposed "easy money" of photography. Many of them are not adding any value, and are barely above the level of bringing a better camera to a location than the client could round up. Perhaps that is harsh, but charging more is not going to elevate someone to a higher level of creativity.

There is another side to this too. When you can deliver on the creativity, and you raise your rates, then you will be perceived by some to be a higher value. The added value you deliver justifies the higher rates, because it makes the clients goods or services more noticeable and memorable. Good or great photography positively influence the perception of a company, while shoddy or so-so photography diminishes the perception of a company. Perception of a company will directly influence their growth and sustainability. It is in their best interests, and those of their shareholders, to be sustainable in tough economic conditions, and grow in favorable economic conditions.
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Ashley
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:46 am    Post subject: Re: Another Bank Job - what would you quote Reply with quote

bubs wrote:
Just curious as to what others here would likely charge, totally out of curiosity.

IF my basic production costs to produce the images was 1,000, then this is how I would have presented it:

To produce & provide 5 images, of people against a white background, at my studio.
For exclusive use, for the Northern Irish Bank to use these images for:-
Media use: Billboards, Point of sale & Brochures only.
Period of use: One year (ends 30th August, 2010).
Territory: UK & Ireland only.
(BUR: 200 per image)

Licence fee based on the above: 5 x 330.00 = 1,650.00

or

To produce & provide 5 images, of people against a white background, at my studio.
For exclusive use, for the Northern Irish Bank to use these images for:-
Media use: Any & All Media.
Period of use: One year (ends 30th August, 2010).
Territory: UK & Ireland only.
(BUR: 200 per image)

Licence fee based on the above: 5 x 1,250.00 = 6,250.00
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Last edited by Ashley on Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:06 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Ashley
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It starts with you - and how you present yourself i.e. your wording.
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Last edited by Ashley on Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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bubs
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Ashley
You up for a coffee sometime?
Rob
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Ashley
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bubs wrote:
Hey Ashley
You up for a coffee sometime?
Rob


Sure - or you can email me at anytime: studio@ashleymorrison.com
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PeterValk
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"If Peter Valk is listening"
I wasn't, but I am now...

Sometimes it's worth reading posts that are not of direct interest.
When I read the original post it was mostly because of the fact that it concerned Northern Ireland, a place I visited twice in the early '90s as a photojournalist ( Belfast and (London?)Derry ). Alas, things changed and I never did go back there, although I liked it there.

But now I am in Moscow and - to get back on topic - it's a jungle out here.
Usage license....? What the heck is that ? Can you eat it ?
I'm not kidding, nobody here pays for usage. And I mean NOBODY.
A visiting Swiss photographer tried it a few years back and he got paid for usage TWICE. And then did not get any more jobs.
In this land you get paid ( if your're lucky ) for shooting the job and get reimbursed for expenses, but that's it.

To be entirely honest, of course people here know about usage and copyright and I have actually been asked to include costs for this in estimated, but I never got any of those jobs, because there's always some photographer saying " that's all included ".

And there is not a thing I can do about it. There is a professional photographers' organisation here in Moscow and that would be a place to start educating people about usage rights and such, but they won't let me in because I'm a foreigner here. ( read: bad man come to take our bread... Evil or Very Mad ... Twisted Evil )
And in a country where you can openly buy software like Photoshop ( and the latest version, too ! ) for about 6 US$ and the government doesn't do anything about it, what do you expect ?

Don't get me wrong, I love Russia and I know the country has great potential, but it also has a long way to go, among many other things where usage / copyrights are concerned.
One can only hope for the best.

Peter
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Mike
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an interesting post / topic. Different opinions that the use is valued at someplace between 1000 (actual fee paid) to "more than five figures" or 100,000+ (not actual fee paid). Quite a span of rates. Is there any question why things in this industry are screwed up?

When I left Detroit in 1998 the move towards paying for use was just beginning and it was like pulling teeth to convince people why this was good for them (both clients and photographers). I talk to people now and then and many still do not charge or break out for usage. Some ad agencies in LA will lie to your face about not knowing the usage planned for a project, they will need 'standard ww unltd forever' boilerplate usage' for $XXXX because 'we think that's fair' . Anybody wanna start a mobile cupcake store?
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PeterValk
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At least you get something Sad
Right now I would settle for an additional 500 $ or so every now and then.
Sigh.....

Peter
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Gordon Moat
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike you have it exactly right, and I completely agree with you. Yet every single time something is mentioned about standardizing rates or business practices, someone chimes in with "anti-trust" as if photographers were wealthy bankers on Wallstreet.

I am of the mind-set of do-it-first, and then deal with the consequences. I don't give a shit if I get hauled in front of the US Congress for pushing some standardized rate structures for photographers. There are already numerous professions with standardized rates across the US, and in parts of the EU, yet I don't see plumbers, mechanics, attorneys, insurance salesmen, nor anyone else appearing to answer "anti-trust" concerns.

The constant fear mongering is complete bullshit. As professionals we need to take control of the future direction of our profession. We need to be fair to our clients, and be fair to ourselves. It is in our clients best interest that we stay in business and create the best possible images for them.
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Ashley
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gordon Moat wrote:
It is in our clients best interest that we stay in business and create the best possible images for them.


Would agree.
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Last edited by Ashley on Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome post, Ashley... Welcome aboard. :-)
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Ashley
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brooks Ayola wrote:
Awesome post, Ashley... Welcome aboard. Smile

Thanks Brooks
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Last edited by Ashley on Tue May 18, 2010 3:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mike
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gordon Moat wrote:
We need to be fair to our clients, and be fair to ourselves. It is in our clients best interest that we stay in business and create the best possible images for them.


I agree, up to a point. Most ADs and CDs want us to stay in business, the account side really doesn;t care and if they are in charge of the $$ it'll be a tug of war.
My friend Tom is a CD at a large agency, he wishes that the photogs would stand up and say no when he is forced to ask for cut-rate photo fees by the account people. But the Account people know the 9 of 10 photogs will cut their rate to do the job most of the time. Tom wants enough $ in the budget to do the job how he sees it but if we agree to bare bones shoot, he too is frustrated.
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