thinking about creative fee pricing
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ProPhotoForums.com Forum Index :: Paper work, paper work, paper work!
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Leslie
Forum Regular


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 227
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But what do you do about your production charges? Who gets billed for the crew, the craft services, the props, etc.? Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but you make it sound like you do not bill your clients for these as line items.
_________________
Leslie Burns
Creative/Marketing Consultant
http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog
http://facebook.com/burnsautoparts


Last edited by Leslie on Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ashley
Forum Regular


Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 84
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leslie wrote:
..but you make it would like you do not bill your clients for these as line items.

Correct.
_________________
Cheers,
Ashley

Ashley Morrison
http://www.ampimage.com
http://www.ashleymorrison.com


Last edited by Ashley on Tue May 18, 2010 3:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Leslie
Forum Regular


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 227
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is NOT the way the business works here and that is not a sustainable business model. I disagree most strongly with your practice and discourage the other members of this forum from following it.
_________________
Leslie Burns
Creative/Marketing Consultant
http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog
http://facebook.com/burnsautoparts
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ashley
Forum Regular


Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 84
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leslie wrote:
That is NOT the way the business works here..

Where is the Rule Book Leslie, that says this is what we must and must not do ?
_________________
Cheers,
Ashley

Ashley Morrison
http://www.ampimage.com
http://www.ashleymorrison.com


Last edited by Ashley on Tue May 18, 2010 3:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Leslie
Forum Regular


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 227
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No rule book, of course.

What I am saying is that your suggestions, if anything, are more beneficial for the client than for the photographer-- in the business sense. If photographers over hear follow your advice, they will be bankrupt in short order.

I appreciate that you are trying to emphasize that the photos BELONG to the photographers, and that is a good intention, but the acts you are suggesting will not help photographers make more money or protect their images.
_________________
Leslie Burns
Creative/Marketing Consultant
http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog
http://facebook.com/burnsautoparts
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ashley
Forum Regular


Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 84
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leslie wrote:
No rule book, of course.

What I am saying is that your suggestions, if anything, are more beneficial for the client than for the photographer-- in the business sense.

Why's that ?

I have found the AOP's B.U.R. system to work very, very well - in the business sense - and it's this system I use.
_________________
Cheers,
Ashley

Ashley Morrison
http://www.ampimage.com
http://www.ashleymorrison.com


Last edited by Ashley on Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:29 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Gordon Moat
Forum Regular


Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Posts: 259
Location: San Diego & Houston

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not just you Ashley, who is confused, because it doesn't always make sense to me either. I started off doing illustration work, and contracts only had Usage Licensing and Expenses (Production). Even in Graphic Design, there is one "Fee" component, at least going by recommendations from the Graphic Artist's Guild Handbook of Pricing.

It is no wonder that some clients get confused by the paperwork we might generate. There is a lack of clarity due to a variety of business practices. I know some photographers who still charge Day Rate, and I have met plenty of potential clients who still ask about Day Rate, despite that model is outmoded. I know a few other photographers who base rates on a Location Fee, though I suppose that works okay for some architecture or industrial photographers.

Probably the greatest failing in this is that colleges simply do not teach much of this, for many creative professions. While issues of Copyright are taught, details of licensing are barely touched upon. There is also the fact that many photographers (and other creative professionals) did not hone their talent in college.

Some companies definitely do "get it" with Licensing, Usage and Copyright. Conversely there are other (potential) clients who seemingly (or want to) dictate how photographers work. More of us need to take charge of our creative professions, but in a way that is clearly understood, appreciated, professional, and in the best interests of us and our clients.
_________________
Ciao!

Gordon
====================
Gordon Moat Photography
http://www.gordonmoat.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Leslie
Forum Regular


Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 227
Location: San Diego

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gordon: Ashley is saying he does NOT bill his "expenses" to his clients. That is not a good idea.

Practically speaking, you would have to have your fee(s) high enough to cover those costs and presenting an estimate to a client that says "$20,000 Licensing Fee" and nothing else will get you dropped from the estimating process fast. They need to compare costs, apples to apples. The pencil-pushers sadly rule in creative departments of corporations as well as ad agencies, etc.

Secondly, if you do not list out line item costs, you run the risk of highly underestimating the project and losing money. Photographers are terrible about estimating their CODB already and tend to undercharge as it is. Having to roll in enough to cover production costs will sink 'em.
_________________
Leslie Burns
Creative/Marketing Consultant
http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog
http://facebook.com/burnsautoparts
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
shanekislack
Forum Regular


Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 212
Location: dallas

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ashley wrote:

I'm confused !!
Two fees for one thing ?

If you buy a book or Music (CD) or a Movie (DVD) - you (the client) only pay one fee.
A Licence fee... for the use of the 'thing'.

They produce (create) the thing and therefore own it (Copyright).
They then provide you (the client) with their thing, for you to Use.
The Licence fee (the amount you pay) is therefore based on the Use of their thing.


The way I read it, YMMV, is that Ashley has a different idea in mind for the term "use" than we do. He even uses a music analogy to illustrate it. He says that you shouldn't have to pay a fee to create a piece of music and one to "use" it. If your intention is to "play" the CD/movie, then the retail price you are paying covers to cost of production and a single license to play that music in a non public atmosphere. However if the buyer wants to reproduce that copy and show it to tens of thousands of people, then they have to purchase additional licensing.

Since photography is so easily reproducable, I think it leads to a misunderstanding of what the terms and ideas mean. So, when trying to understand it...I like to think in terms of painting. If I hire you to paint a picture for me, you'll charge me for the paint and canvas. Those are production fees. Now you need to get paid something for "you" since you worked to paint it. That's the creative fee. Now if I'm asking you to paint the Mona Lisa...well that takes more skill than if I ask you to paint me a smiley face. So you'll charge more since you are the only one that can paint the Mona Lisa. Now you've got a very nice painting to hang above your couch. But wait, you love the painting so much, you want to reproduce it 10,000 times. That's the usage/licensing.

So now you are probably saying, "but who would hire you to take a picture and print only one copy?" That's true. But we still have to address how much reproducing will be done because obviously reproducing it 10,000 times is worth more than reproducing it 10. So we have to have a separate line item that will justify the difference in charging a license for 10K and 10.
_________________
I'm gonna sign your pitty on the runny kine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Gordon Moat
Forum Regular


Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Posts: 259
Location: San Diego & Houston

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely I have always listed expenses. Even in my Proposals, even when there are items for which the client is responsible, potential expenses are mentioned.

One thing that came up a few times on shoots last year (2009) was clients asking about ways to reduce the overall cost of a shoot. I didn't change any of the Usage Fees, but a few times I was able to work without an assistant.

Terry Richardson might be able to shoot with minimal gear, and if he were competing simply on lower expenses, then he might better many other proposals (all other things being equal). However, the guy who needs five cases of equipment and three assistants, even if his Usage Fees are equal, would be presenting a heftier Proposal. So I do think it is important to indicate expenses and production.
_________________
Ciao!

Gordon
====================
Gordon Moat Photography
http://www.gordonmoat.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Gordon Moat
Forum Regular


Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Posts: 259
Location: San Diego & Houston

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shanekislack wrote:
..........

So now you are probably saying, "but who would hire you to take a picture and print only one copy?" That's true. But we still have to address how much reproducing will be done because obviously reproducing it 10,000 times is worth more than reproducing it 10. So we have to have a separate line item that will justify the difference in charging a license for 10K and 10.


That is often how Illustration and Graphic Design determine licensing. It is based upon volume of reproductions. While there are other types of projects in that world, fees based upon reproductions are easy for clients to understand.
_________________
Ciao!

Gordon
====================
Gordon Moat Photography
http://www.gordonmoat.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
shanekislack
Forum Regular


Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 212
Location: dallas

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gordon Moat wrote:
shanekislack wrote:
..........

So now you are probably saying, "but who would hire you to take a picture and print only one copy?" That's true. But we still have to address how much reproducing will be done because obviously reproducing it 10,000 times is worth more than reproducing it 10. So we have to have a separate line item that will justify the difference in charging a license for 10K and 10.


That is often how Illustration and Graphic Design determine licensing. It is based upon volume of reproductions. While there are other types of projects in that world, fees based upon reproductions are easy for clients to understand.


Isn't that also how photographers determine licensing? With the additional consideration of whom the client is and location of placement, of course?
_________________
I'm gonna sign your pitty on the runny kine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Koa
Forum Regular


Joined: 04 Apr 2009
Posts: 22
Location: Puerto Rico

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is funny...

For the most part, clients don't care about you or your costs or your time or your expenses or your anything.
They only care about what they are going to get - in their hands - for the fee.

1. Exclusive or non-exclusive use.
2. Number of images.
3. Media use.
4. Period of use.
5. Territory of use.

Nothing else matters to them.

"Important to them" is not the same as "Important to you".
It's the Value to them that will determine their budget, not the Value to you.


That's the point. These folks don't care if you are broke, living in a hovel or driving a bike... all they care about is that they get what they want at the price they demand (free if possible).

No one is going to look after you as good as you will. You need to find a balance between satisfying the client and yourself.

After all, do you really care if they go bankrupt?

Then again, this is a clear example of the intellectual clash of cultures in this world.

-Koa-
_________________
Your pride is our passion
www.borikenwarrior.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Gordon Moat
Forum Regular


Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Posts: 259
Location: San Diego & Houston

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shanekislack wrote:


Isn't that also how photographers determine licensing? With the additional consideration of whom the client is and location of placement, of course?


Exactly! Other creative professionals already use those criteria for licensing. Designers and Illustrators often use one line for the Fee, whether it is called a Usage Fee or Creative Fee, or something else, there is just one line item. Creative Fee and Usage Fee are not split out in their projects, so why should they be split out for photographers?
_________________
Ciao!

Gordon
====================
Gordon Moat Photography
http://www.gordonmoat.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ashley
Forum Regular


Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 84
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gordon Moat wrote:
However, the guy who needs five cases of equipment and three assistants, even if his Usage Fees are equal, would be presenting a heftier Proposal. So I do think it is important to indicate expenses and production.

Listing what's "In the Box" is one thing - most companies do that.
However, giving your clients a full breakdown of what's "In the Box" and putting a figure beside each item, is a different thing altogether.
Those things will then be viewed as options or extras by the client.
_________________
Cheers,
Ashley

Ashley Morrison
http://www.ampimage.com
http://www.ashleymorrison.com


Last edited by Ashley on Tue May 18, 2010 3:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
shanekislack
Forum Regular


Joined: 04 Sep 2008
Posts: 212
Location: dallas

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ashley wrote:


For example:
They don't need an assistant and therefore don't want to pay for one - but you do, to help you produce the images they have asked for.
So ... do you let them dictate how you produce the images (which you claim as your images and therefore own the Copyright to) or do you stay in control of this part, because they are your images after-all ?

Is the assistant therefore an optional extra (line item) or not - that's the question !


I see your point. However, it's the way it's traditionally been done and the reason is multi-fold. One, showing the crew you plan on using shows how specific your estimate is and shows how big of a production it's going to be. For example, if we are bidding the same job and you put down one assistant and the I put down 3...then they know I'm planning a bigger production. Which means I'm either going over board or that I know something about this type of shot that requires 3 assistants that you don't. That can greatly influence their decision. The second reason is that it's a negotiating tool. Since you can't randomly reduce a creative fee and they don't want to lessen the usage, you can offer to do the job with less crew...but make sure they understand they are sacrificing man power. This happens to me a lot with make-up. I'd love to have make-up on every job...but sometimes they don't want to pay for it.

I think anytime a piece of work is commissioned, then the client does have some say in the quality of tools and manpower used.
_________________
I'm gonna sign your pitty on the runny kine.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ashley
Forum Regular


Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 84
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shanekislack wrote:

One, showing the crew you plan on using shows how specific your estimate is and shows how big of a production it's going to be. For example, if we are bidding the same job and you put down one assistant and the I put down 3...then they know I'm planning a bigger production. Which means I'm either going over board or that I know something about this type of shot that requires 3 assistants that you don't. That can greatly influence their decision. The second reason is that it's a negotiating tool. Since you can't randomly reduce a creative fee and they don't want to lessen the usage, you can offer to do the job with less crew...but make sure they understand they are sacrificing man power.


"Important to you" is not the same as "Important to them".

Which one are you focused on, when talking to them and negotiating the fee ?
_________________
Cheers,
Ashley

Ashley Morrison
http://www.ampimage.com
http://www.ashleymorrison.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Gordon Moat
Forum Regular


Joined: 24 Aug 2008
Posts: 259
Location: San Diego & Houston

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ashley wrote:


Is the assistant therefore an optional extra (line item) or not - that's the question !


Yes, any and all assistants are optional extras, according to your criteria.

Definitely assistants make shoots go smoother. They allow me to concentrate more on the shots, and less on the gear. A good or great assistant potentially elevates me to the pinnacle of my talent.

The potential is that I might get a better result from having an assistant (one or more) present on location. It never means the opposite, that without an assistant would mean a sub-par shoot.

I would imagine the big names out there have assistants to get them coffee or snacks, or someone to catch the flying cameras (Liebowitz) ... implying that is what they need to do their best work. Clients often do not understand the creative process anyway, so trying to explain anything beyond you and the camera (and lights) can be an uphill battle. Anything beyond the photographer and the camera is an optional extra.
_________________
Ciao!

Gordon
====================
Gordon Moat Photography
http://www.gordonmoat.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mike
Forum Regular


Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 231
Location: Los Angeles, where fun goes on vacation

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know for sure but I think there is some sort of mis-communication going on here. I may be wrong but I assume that Ashley is billing for production costs somewhere somehow, just not calling it out on the invoice. So maybe the invoice totals come up the same but are written up differently. Some of my clients want to know creative fee/production-costs/usage not just a total...some want one $ amount and don't care how it was arrived at.

Also take into account the difference in market US v non-US and the specialized genre that Ashley is working in...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Ashley
Forum Regular


Joined: 27 Feb 2010
Posts: 84
Location: Europe

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shanekislack wrote:
If I hire you to paint a picture for me, you'll charge me for the paint and canvas.

Yes, naturally if you hired me and I agreed to that, then my Quote would be based on that i.e. a WMFH agreement which I would sign and present to you.
And the terms of that agreement would probably state, that you would agree to pay me not only for my time but also for any & all expenses.
So therefore, I would list all the things on the Quote, that I would require to do the Job for you and indicate a price beside each item.
Which you would then be asked to sign-off, before I started to do the work for you.

shanekislack wrote:
Those are production fees.

Yes - and because they are your production costs - then naturally I would bill you for those.

shanekislack wrote:
Now you need to get paid something for "you" since you worked to paint it.

Naturally.

shanekislack wrote:
That's the creative fee.

You can call it that if you like - but if you were hiring me to paint a picture, then I'd called it what it is, so there was no confusion here.
On the Quote it would say this was my hourly rate or Day rate fee.

Happy enough so far - that all sounds logical to me.
You hire me and I agree to work for hire, so I bill you accordingly.

shanekislack wrote:
Now you've got a very nice painting to hang above your couch. But wait, you love the painting so much, you want to reproduce it 10,000 times. That's the usage/licensing.

Right... which naturally I would have to pay you, because you own the painting.

A'm I missing something here ?
Because I'm not sure where you are going with this !!
_________________
Cheers,
Ashley

Ashley Morrison
http://www.ampimage.com
http://www.ashleymorrison.com


Last edited by Ashley on Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ProPhotoForums.com Forum Index :: Paper work, paper work, paper work! All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
Charcoal2 Theme © Zarron Media